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Thread: WD Trivia/Storytime Thread

  1. #251
    Senior Member xelement5x's Avatar
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    Yeah, the only saving grace nowadays is that that the memory carts are region free and you can easily pick up a JP one for a pretty reasonable price since the Saturn was so popular in Japan. I've had cart slot issues as well, stay away from the 3rd party ones if you can!

  2. #252
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    Quote Originally Posted by sweetsweetfugu View Post
    that is totally messed up. Dragon Force issues aside, the 3rd party carts were notoriously flaky on their own losing all saves or making them inaccessible. The price may have been twice as much (well, when the 3rd party carts were $30), but it was well worth it for the authentic thing just to have something that wasn't a malfunctioning PoS. Besides, the thing had so much space on it you could practically save every single game made and released for the system stateside.



    IDK the *exact* reason, but it was directly related to the development kit for Nights being taken by Stolar. Did Naka feel this was treachery? Did he want to be the one to make a Saturn Sonic? Did he object to some baka gaijin making a Sonic game? It is a mystery... But it was part of a back-and-forth between SoA and SoJ. The American team got the kit and were two weeks into making a prototype before being forced to scrap all their progress so Naka wouldn't leave. They weren't happy about it.

    It is one of several good examples of why the Saturn failed though. Everyone seems to want to make Stolar the villain here, but you have to realize the Saturn was screwed up from the start before he was even a factor. SoA and SoJ had a dysfunctional relationship and had a tendency to want to take Sega and its properties in separate directions at times. The Saturn's launch was botched terrifically in the United States. It started at $600 with a god awful redesigned controller and I don't remember exactly if Virtua Fighter was a limited pack-in or not, but it looked and played like garbage. Besides, nobody knew the stupid thing had been released. One day it had literally just appeared in stores with no advertising or marketing to speak of. When the Playstation came out, the Saturn was priced to match at $300. When the PS dropped to $250, the Saturn didn't. I seem to remember SoA wanting to remain competitive and matching the price, but SoJ objected. The $50 difference is what caused the PS to start kicking the Saturn's butt real hard. Plus here in the west, there was a bizarre obsession with trying to use the Saturn, a 2d powerhouse, to out 3d a competing system that was way better at it.

    The Saturn is secretly the best system of its generation. Nobody in the west would know that unless they were playing import games though. Helen Keller could have managed the system better
    If this Naka was making such a big deal about it then SoJ should have been given the boot because threatening to leave just because the NA Sega branch is trying to make a Sonic game is very unprofessional
    Last edited by Tsukoblue; 05-30-2013 at 03:33 PM.

  3. #253
    Senior Member PW_Patrick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tsukoblue View Post
    If this Naka was making such a big deal about it then SoJ should have been given the boot because threatening to leave just because the NA Sega branch is trying to make a Sonic game is very unprofessional

    If I was in charge of a company and an employee started throwing a childish tauntrum like that I'd give them one and only one chance to stop before having them escorted out if they didn't drop it
    Too many factors to let that happen in the mid 90s - Japanese business culture, Naka's resumé at Sega, the fact that Naka and Miyamoto are good friends and letting him walk would almost guarantee him a new home in Kyoto...right or wrong, he had them by the junk.

  4. #254
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    Quote Originally Posted by PW_Patrick View Post
    Yeah, I remember the Saturn launching at E3 2005. They basically said "and all this is available...RIGHT NOW at your local retailer! Go get 'em!"

    And since nobody had time to save up for the console, the crowd went mild.
    Like I was saying about SoA and SoJ wanting to go in different directions, the whole period between the Genesis and the Saturn was a.... hrm... I have to say a rated R word... Clusterfunk? Is that ok? Am I okay saying that? It was a clusterfunk. I would bet you money the reason why the Saturn's launch in the US was so poor had everything to do with the 32X. That was their confused abortive attempt at a 'next gen' console. Which was an addon. Since it was their baby they were doing their darnedest to sell it the entire period leading up to the Saturn.

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonmasterDan View Post
    And yes, as mentioned earlier finding first party Saturn memory cards was a challenge and as a result most people were using Interact or Performance brand ones in the US. By the time (and long before that actually) Magic Knight Rayearth came out, outside of ebay finding a first party Saturn memory cart was a near impossibility. Even finding used ones in a brick and mortar store that carried them like Funcoland was a challenge.
    It was worse than that. It seems like a lot of people don't remember, but the Sega branded memory carts were hard to find even before Stolar took SoA's helm. I don't think Sega was intentionally trying to undersell them, I think they were being out competed on the retail end. Retailers didn't want to stock them because they didn't sell. They were $60. It was $30-$40 for the reverse engineered junk carts sold by 3rd parties that promised more storage space. At the end of the Saturn's life, the Saturn carts were still @ $60 brand new and even harder to find. The 3rd party ones were all over the place and went as low as $15.

    also, psh, funkoland. They had the box for everything but never the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tsukoblue View Post
    If this Naka was making such a big deal about it then SoJ should have been given the boot because threatening to leave just because the NA Sega branch is trying to make a Sonic game is very unprofessional
    do you realize what you're saying? At the time that happened, Naka was a rockstar. He was to Sonic as Miyamoto was to Mario. It would have been like Nintendo letting Miyamoto leave.




    anyway, since this is a bit of a story time thread the Saturn is related to WD lore and there seems to be some confusion and unfamiliarity with it, but here are some facts and memories about Sega and the Saturn back in the day and why it didn't do well (hopefully I don't mess anything up too badly).

    Up to 1995, Sega of America was still making games for the following systems: Sega Master System, Genesis, Game Gear, Sega CD, 32X, 32xCD, Sega Pico

    here is a bizarre promotional video featuring SoA's original mascot for the Saturn: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjK0P_Qz0SA

    here is a collage of Saturn commercials with Japan's Saturn mascot: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lcIYDxmnKHY

    I admit, one came way later than the other, but as far as commercialism goes one of the two makes me want to buy a Saturn out of sheer awesomeness and fear for my life.

    the US' Sega Saturn was released with a redesigned controller from the Jp version. Do an image search for "US Saturn Controller" and you'll see both versions. I can tell you from experience (mine came with one) the original bigger fatter squared off duplo block looking one had a mushy unresponsive d-pad. The shoulder buttons weren't very responsive either. The sleeker smaller version you'll see is the redesign (it's really just the Japanese controller) and in contrast, is maybe one of the best controllers made ever. The D-pad quality and button arrangement makes it perfect for fighting games. Almost as good as a joystick. The difference between the two Saturn controllers is like night and day.

    Virtua Fighter on the Saturn, Sega's flagship game, looked bad and played bad. It looked rougher and blockier than the arcade and had stiff controls.

    Within a few months of release, Sega started a promotion to sell Saturns. It was "Buy a system and get 3 free retail games". The system was still $600-$500 and you didn't get a choice of games. 2 of them were Sega's Baseball and Soccer (football) games. Don't remember the 3rd one. It was a really weak promotion.

    As I said before, the official memory carts were hard to find and expensive. $10 more than a brand new game release. The more plentiful and cheaper 3rd party units were highly defective.

    you know how every console generation, there's that one console fanboys and brand loyalists bash on because the system is 'difficult to program for'? That was the Saturn.

    Then there's stories like Sonic Xtreme which tell a tale that Sega was messed up on the inside on both sides.

    this was all stuff BEFORE Stolar joined. I'm not defending the man at all, but trying to point out the Saturn had problems before he was an issue.

    if it helps to put Bernie Stolar into any sort of context, here's a link to a picture of him from an interview right when Sega signed him on (sorry it has some angry Sega fanboy rant on it, I can't find a clean version) http://tinyurl.com/kd9b2tc

    but yeah, aside from at least 2 times Stolar stiffed Working Designs (once at Sony then at Sega) he is the guy who killed the Saturn by announcing at some E3 that "The Saturn is not our future". Once he said those words, every 3rd party jumped ship and nearly every brick and mortar store selling Saturn games slashed them to $10 or less. I wound up buying @ half the Saturn library because of that.

    Stolar's parting shot with Sega was getting a 56.6k modem put on the Dreamcast dismissing SoJ demands it ship with a cheaper lower baud one.
    Last edited by sweetsweetfugu; 05-30-2013 at 06:41 PM. Reason: cleanin up

  5. #255
    Senior Member PW_Patrick's Avatar
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    WTF is that Kamen Rider? o_O

  6. #256
    Senior Member zborgerd's Avatar
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    Everyone rants and raves about Stolar, but SEGA (especially SOA) has always been dysfunctional. It's easy to pin the problems on one person, but when you have two separate organizations on opposite sides of the world that are always at the other's throat, can you ever expect success? The Dreamcast was under development long before Stolar allegedly said "The Saturn is not our future". Dreamcast launched in Japan in 1998; a paltry four years after the Saturn launch and a full year and a half before the PS2! The Saturn was already dead in the US before Stolar even arrived at SEGA.

    Honestly, the whole thing is silly. I miss SEGA as a hardware company just like everyone else, but I feel that the criticism is largely perpetuated by fanboys that can't seem to accept the reality. It's all old news by now.

    SEGA used to be a company that made great games. They don't even do that anymore. They just publish games that other people make; a shadow of the former company. They piss on all of their old properties and don't even care about creating games of quality. During the Saturn and Dreamcast era, they had something to fight for. Now? When is the last time that you bought a SEGA-developed game? Mine was probably F-Zero GX or some PSO or Skies GCN variant. I've purchased several games that they've *published*; e.g. Platinum Games releases.

    It was pretty obvious that they were planning a restructure long before they formally announced it. The industry was changing. You don't see Microsoft or Sony investing heavily in their own in-house studios. They buy up third-party studios and run them into the ground or ultimately sell them off later. SEGA has always dropped the ball when it comes to hardware. The company has released one failure after another with add-ons and consoles in which *they* cut loose too early. And it wasn't even for lack of system sales. It was inflated development costs with low profit turn-around because their "fans" wouldn't buy enough games. Or ports that were leftover from a dying arcade business. The business model didn't work, so they changed to the same type that everyone else seems to be using. Nintendo is the only remaining game console company that seems to behave like an old-school game console company; because they can still do it when they dominate the handheld market and their first-party properties (even on their fixed consoles) continue to be million-selling hits, game after game, regardless of third party support. SEGA was always a company that needed the third-party to survive, and they could never get that with the Saturn or Dreamcast. It wasn't like the Genesis era when *everyone* published games on SEGA's console.

    SEGA is a lot like Square. Many of their talent left to start their own studios (Even Yu Sazuki is only there as an "adviser". Adviser of what? Adviser of the broom closet! His last console games were produced / directed a decade ago.) and the company only survives on the nostalgia of fans, from when they used to actually make good games.

  7. #257
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    Quote Originally Posted by zborgerd View Post
    Everyone rants and raves about Stolar, but SEGA (especially SOA) has always been dysfunctional. It's easy to pin the problems on one person, but when you have two separate organizations on opposite sides of the world that are always at the other's throat, can you ever expect success? The Dreamcast was under development long before Stolar allegedly said "The Saturn is not our future". Dreamcast launched in Japan in 1998; a paltry four years after the Saturn launch and a full year and a half before the PS2! The Saturn was already dead in the US before Stolar even arrived at SEGA.

    Honestly, the whole thing is silly. I miss SEGA as a hardware company just like everyone else, but I feel that the criticism is largely perpetuated by fanboys that can't seem to accept the reality. It's all old news by now.

    SEGA used to be a company that made great games. They don't even do that anymore. They just publish games that other people make; a shadow of the former company. They piss on all of their old properties and don't even care about creating games of quality. During the Saturn and Dreamcast era, they had something to fight for. Now? When is the last time that you bought a SEGA-developed game? Mine was probably F-Zero GX or some PSO or Skies GCN variant. I've purchased several games that they've *published*; e.g. Platinum Games releases.

    It was pretty obvious that they were planning a restructure long before they formally announced it. The industry was changing. You don't see Microsoft or Sony investing heavily in their own in-house studios. They buy up third-party studios and run them into the ground or ultimately sell them off later. SEGA has always dropped the ball when it comes to hardware. The company has released one failure after another with add-ons and consoles in which *they* cut loose too early. And it wasn't even for lack of system sales. It was inflated development costs with low profit turn-around because their "fans" wouldn't buy enough games. Or ports that were leftover from a dying arcade business. The business model didn't work, so they changed to the same type that everyone else seems to be using. Nintendo is the only remaining game console company that seems to behave like an old-school game console company; because they can still do it when they dominate the handheld market and their first-party properties (even on their fixed consoles) continue to be million-selling hits, game after game, regardless of third party support. SEGA was always a company that needed the third-party to survive, and they could never get that with the Saturn or Dreamcast. It wasn't like the Genesis era when *everyone* published games on SEGA's console.

    SEGA is a lot like Square. Many of their talent left to start their own studios (Even Yu Sazuki is only there as an "adviser". Adviser of what? Adviser of the broom closet! His last console games were produced / directed a decade ago.) and the company only survives on the nostalgia of fans, from when they used to actually make good games.
    It would a been cool to see a port of Final Fantasy on the Master System or Genesis

  8. #258
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    Quote Originally Posted by zborgerd View Post
    Everyone rants and raves about Stolar, but SEGA (especially SOA) has always been dysfunctional. It's easy to pin the problems on one person, but when you have two separate organizations on opposite sides of the world that are always at the other's throat, can you ever expect success? The Dreamcast was under development long before Stolar allegedly said "The Saturn is not our future". Dreamcast launched in Japan in 1998; a paltry four years after the Saturn launch and a full year and a half before the PS2! The Saturn was already dead in the US before Stolar even arrived at SEGA.
    I'm not going to fight and argue with you, but the reason there's so much hate for Stolar is that he was the face for the Saturn's death. It wasn't dead before he arrived. It wasn't doing great, but it wasn't dead. In the west, it died pretty much the exact moment he said it wasn't Sega's future. They were finishing up development on their Saturn projects and that was it. By then the DC was still more than a year out while the Saturn was getting crazy awesome stuff in Japan.

    The Dreamcast is what killed Sega though. It didn't sell in Japan. At all. They couldn't give the thing away there was so little interest in it. Sega's market value fell into junk status. Mr. Isao Okawa died and that was pretty much it for the Sega we knew. The majority share holders for Sega now is Sammy corp. That would probably explain why Sega became a caricature of itself for the past 10 years.

    but lol I actually found a cleaned up version of the Stolar superman picture on my HD. http://www.gaijinworks.com/interact/...4&d=1369947566
    Attached Images Attached Images

  9. #259
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lunartic View Post
    How many Innovas were there, in all? And what was the story with that revolving door? Just webmaster/forum duties getting handed off to lowest in the food chain? Or were those of us on the WDMB that rowdy that we kept scaring them all off?

    Anyone seen JoeyJoJoJJrShabido since his exit?
    I'm around. As Vic mentioned I'm in Portland, OR. doing a variety of projects. Lots of retro console programming, reproductions, making SNES' into Neo Geos, that sort of thing. My attentions are primarily focused on retro games right now. Road Warriors on the Atari 2600 was one of the more notable releases I did from last year and being that it was a super limited edition (41 copies in all) goes for a stupid price on ebay now. I am currently working on a new PC RPG which we will hopefully announce at the Portland Retro Gaming Expo in October. There are also a few interviews on the net that I've done concerning the various projects I've been involved in. I suggest not ever looking for them. For some reason interviews always seem to happen at the end of one of the retro shows when I'm too tired to be interesting or even coherent.

  10. #260
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    Quote Originally Posted by sweetsweetfugu View Post
    I'm not going to fight and argue with you, but the reason there's so much hate for Stolar is that he was the face for the Saturn's death. It wasn't dead before he arrived. It wasn't doing great, but it wasn't dead. In the west, it died pretty much the exact moment he said it wasn't Sega's future. They were finishing up development on their Saturn projects and that was it. By then the DC was still more than a year out while the Saturn was getting crazy awesome stuff in Japan.

    The Dreamcast is what killed Sega though. It didn't sell in Japan. At all. They couldn't give the thing away there was so little interest in it. Sega's market value fell into junk status. Mr. Isao Okawa died and that was pretty much it for the Sega we knew. The majority share holders for Sega now is Sammy corp. That would probably explain why Sega became a caricature of itself for the past 10 years.

    but lol I actually found a cleaned up version of the Stolar superman picture on my HD. http://www.gaijinworks.com/interact/...4&d=1369947566
    Look at Stolar's face rofl, did he have too much to drink the night before the picture was taken?

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